Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord

[FideLeo]

How does this WTC compare to Landowska's for instance, which is also on the slower side?

But Egarr's instrument, tuning etc. sounds nothing like Landowska's.  And his choice of tempi
clearly shows he doesn't think HIP=fast. 

[Bunny]

But Egarr's instrument, tuning etc. sounds nothing like Landowska's.  And his choice of tempi
clearly shows he doesn't think HIP=fast. 

I know that no one's tuning or instrument sounds like Landowska's!  I was hoping you could tell me only how his tempi compare to hers.  I don't think I would enjoy anything slower than Landowska.  Also, I'm not sure that the overly stately tempos are HIP.  I suspect that Bach played a good deal faster than Egarr in the Goldbergs as well.  I hate it when the pieces are played slowly as they begin to sound like pedagogic exercises, and remind me of my own efforts on the piano as a 14 year old.

[lukeottevanger]

It is very bland. To be kind and gentle, I won't say dull or boring. It is poor example of what even a relic like the harpsichord can do, with the right hands and brain.

What would JS prefer? More projection? A lively delivery? I think he would have preferred the organ (vs harpsichord) for both power and note sustainability.

Sadly, we do not have much that is quotable from the great man. As one scholar said, "only a few chestnuts from his sons." And none of these are specific about instrumentation.

....well, except for the one that suggests he prefered the clavichord above all (militant wing of the Clavichord Liberation Front speaking here, you understand) 

[Don]

I know that no one's tuning or instrument sounds like Landowska's!  I was hoping you could tell me only how his tempi compare to hers.  I don't think I would enjoy anything slower than Landowska.  Also, I'm not sure that the overly stately tempos are HIP.  I suspect that Bach played a good deal faster than Egarr in the Goldbergs as well.  I hate it when the pieces are played slowly as they begin to sound like pedagogic exercises, and remind me of my own efforts on the piano as a 14 year old.

My memory might be a little off, but I recollect that Egarr is extremely slow in Bach's faster pieces, not particularly slow in the more reflective ones.  Unless you have money to burn, I suggest passing on the Egarr.

[prémont]

Yes, it is essentially impossible to play any music without an interpretation of some sort.  However I will argue that not all HIPs will sound alike -- given the fact that Egarr is no new hand in this business, I, unlike you, will refrain from speculating on how "pre-HIP" his performance appears to be.   In some fugues his approach is actually similar to that of Davitt Moroney, whose work I also enjoy among HIP versions.

No, Moroneys WTC is much more articulated than Egarr´s. And my primary concern as to Egarr´s WTC refers to his underarticulation of the music, not to the tempo. I can stand slow tempi, if the music is well articulated, e.g. Wolfgang Rübsam´s second Bach organ integral for Naxos. But Egarr - ?? What are his intensions? Does he think that he achieves the greatest possible objectivity by playing in this way? If he thinks so, he is misguided. I get more pleasure from reading the score, than by listening to Egarr, and what is the purpose of a recording under these circumstances.

[Don]

No, Moroneys WTC is much more articulated than Egarr´s. And my primary concern as to Egarr´s WTC refers to his underarticulation of the music, not to the tempo. I can stand slow tempi, if the music is well articulated, e.g. Wolfgang Rübsam´s second Bach organ integral for Naxos. But Egarr - ?? What are his intensions?

To reach cantabile heaven.

[FideLeo]

But Egarr - ?? What are his intensions? Does he think that he achieves the greatest possible objectivity by playing in this way? If he thinks so, he is misguided. I get more pleasure from reading the score, than by listening to Egarr, and what is the purpose of a recording under these circumstances.

But you have been talking about YOUR responses, and I have talked about mine (no problems at all with his "underarticulation.")  I cannot be held responsible for whatever gap there is between the two and you might have to contact Egarr himself if you have doubts about HIS intentions.

Edit.  I have been reading a lot in these pages about how his interpretation sounds a lot like certain pre-HIP performances etc. - well, words don't do justice to how the music actually sounds like imo.  Two people can use exactly same words for their impressions of sounds that in fact differ in many, many ways.

Also I would encourage more reflection on this thing called HIP.  Performers can certainly have different takes on historical materials which they used towards devising their own interpretation.  I would not be surprised if even reading the same texts can yield vastly different conclusions about what to do with the same music score.   If possible, I would hope to see some actual quote from period literature on clavier playing that just how much articulation is required to make listenable phrases and so on.  Comparing different performances/recordings etc. doesn't seem to me to be a good alternative to this.

[FideLeo]

Unless you have money to burn, I suggest passing on the Egarr.

On the contrary, I think the Egarr is far from worthless.  A different take on the music
and if you are as much interested in these things as I am, try it. 

[Don]

On the contrary, I think the Egarr is far from worthless.  A different take on the music
and if you are as much interested in these things as I am, try it. 

I didn't indicate that Egarr's WTC was worthless and likely think as well of it as fl. traverso.  But the set is at premium price; that's a lot to pay for a set that is in the "try it" category.

[Bunny]

I didn't indicate that Egarr's WTC was worthless and likely think as well of it as fl. traverso.  But the set is at premium price; that's a lot to pay for a set that is in the "try it" category.

After reading all the comments, I would venture to say that despite misgivings I am curious to hear some of the pieces.  If it's available on Itunes plus or as an amazon download, I may purchase some of the tracks to sample.  That way I can save money and also get a good sample.   

Right now I'm so sorry my local Tower Records closed!  How I miss the listening rooms. 

[prémont]

...some actual quote from period literature on clavier playing that just how much articulation is required to make listenable phrases and so on. 

I am not a musicologist, and others may correct me, if I am wrong, but as far as I know, there are no detailed contemporary sources describing Bach´s playing style. Some treatises about performance of music are written by the next generation (CPE Bach, J.J.Quantz and Leopold Mozart) and reflect another musical taste. Concerning Bach´s articulation by the way you can study the scores of his chamber music (as I wrote earlier) with profit, since he supplied these with rather many (most often) short articulation ties indicating a detailed and pointed rhytmichal articulation. This is first and foremost true of the parts for stringed instruments, but the same principles may easily be applied to other instruments - not the least to the organ and the harpsichord, because underarticulated playing on these instruments tends to blur the rhythm. Play a simple C major scale legato on an organ or a harpsichord, and no listener can tell the rhythm, because the instruments lack the possibility of dynamical differentiation. Underarticulation may make the music calm and beautiful, but it deprives it of its rhythmical life, and remark well that Bach´s music is a cornucopia of dancing rhythmic life, provided it is not suppressed by underarticulation.

[Bunny]

[...] and remark well that Bach´s music is a cornucopia of dancing rhythmic life, provided it is not suppressed by underarticulation.

So true!  If he had not been interested in the rhythmic aspects of the music, then why use so many dance forms?

[FideLeo]

Play a simple C major scale legato on an organ or a harpsichord, and no listener can tell the rhythm, because the instruments lack the possibility of dynamical differentiation. Underarticulation may make the music calm and beautiful, but it deprives it of its rhythmical life, and remark well that Bach´s music is a cornucopia of dancing rhythmic life, provided it is not suppressed by underarticulation.

Yes...but I find Egarr applying sufficient inflection in movements with clear dance character, which are not that many in WTC.  Sorry, but your paraphrase doesn't do much for me here because it is not necessarily a good fit on the keyboard music (esp. in the WTC category) - the fact that Bach chose not to use many articulation marks in keyboard scores can certainly use a different interpretation from yours.

[prémont]

Yes...but I find Egarr applying sufficient inflection in movements with clear dance character, which are not that many in WTC.  Sorry, but your paraphrase doesn't do much for me here because it is not necessarily a good fit on the keyboard music (esp. in the WTC category) -

Again you understand me too literally. I do not claim, that every Bach-movement is a well defined dance, but I want to draw attention to the fact, that the dance element is present almost everywhere in his music. Listen to the first movement of the Fifth Brandenburg. Is this a dance? No, but the music so to say dances by itself.

the fact that Bach chose not to use many articulation marks in keyboard scores can certainly use a different interpretation from yours.

I suppose you want to maintain, that Bach´s keyboard music must be played lethargic and unarticulated. 

[FideLeo]

Again you understand me too literally. I do not claim, that every Bach-movement is a well defined dance, but I want to draw attention to the fact, that the dance element is present almost everywhere in his music. Listen to the first movement of the Fifth Brandenburg. Is this a dance? No, but the music so to say dances by itself.

I will take issue with you on the last point regarding Brandenburg 5 -- dance-like is one of the options but not the only one.  What in history asserts that it is? 

I suppose you want to maintain, that Bach´s keyboard music must be played lethargic and unarticulated. 

Wrong supposition - I'd never use the word "must" like you did.  And how is slow necessarily "lethargic"?   Stop putting words in my mouth already.

[prémont]

I will take issue with you on the last point regarding Brandenburg 5 -- dance-like is one of the options but not the only one. 

Yes, and the other option is, that the music should speak - it should be well phrased and articulated, can we name this the rhethorical option?

Wrong supposition - I'd never use the word "must" like you did.  And how is slow necessarily "lethargic"?   Stop putting words in my mouth already.

Pardon, I didn´t mean "must", I meant "should".

Interesting comment here BTW:

I would say it's an overstatement to call Egarr's WTC unexciting...let's just say that his interpretation simply favours a more balanced and receiving mind than mine. 

[FideLeo]

Yes, and the other option is, that the music should speak - it should be well phrased and articulated, can we name this the rhethorical option?

Or the "discursive" kind, but I think there are more than the two options you have listed so far.   Language simply doesn't do music justice in describing how it can be.   One needs to listen to the real thing itself.

Pardon, I didn´t mean "must", I meant "should".

Neither "must" nor "should" is what I said.  You had simply misinterpreted my words.  Twice.    How about "could"?  HIP isn't as dogmatic as some people have made it out to be.  Stylistic options are as many as the performer's readings of his/her material at hand.

I had disliked Egarr's WTC more before, and I have liked it a lot more since.  I think I have a more balanced and receiving mind now.  0:)

[prémont]

Or the "discursive" kind, but I think there are more than the two options you have listed so far.   Language simply doesn't do music justice in describing how it can be.   One needs to listen to the real thing itself.

And if you only listen to a certain kind of performers, you will never find out, how the music can be. At least I find very much more spiritual and emotional content in the WTC I , than Egarr for inexplicable reasons has chosen to express. Wilhelm Kempff has also been accused of being to "soft", but for some reason his approach works much better in romantic music I think, whereas his Bach is suffering from the same kind of emotional suppression as Egarrs.

[FideLeo]

And if you only listen to a certain kind of performers, you will never find out, how the music can be. At least I find very much more spiritual and emotional content in the WTC I , than Egarr for inexplicable reasons has chosen to express. Wilhelm Kempff has also been accused of being to "soft", but for some reason his approach works much better in romantic music I think, whereas his Bach is suffering from the same kind of emotional suppression as Egarrs.

Of course I don't just listen to one kind of performance - I consider myself to be more inclusive than you appear to be in these matters actually.  Your characterisations of Kempff vs. Egarr, etc. again are YOUR take, and I am not going to quibble with those as they have nothing on me. 

[prémont]

Of course I don't just listen to one kind of performance - I consider myself to be more inclusive than you appear to be in these matters actually. 

So do I, and I appreciate, when an artist makes great efforts to display the beauty in Bachs music. So does e.g. Kenneth Gilbert, but he is considerably more articulated than Egarr, and his agogics are subtle and not mannered as Egarr´s. This is, why his interpretations have got a rich inner life beneath the beautiful surface. And this is, what I miss with Egarr, and why he makes me fall asleep. Period.