Conductors

[Drasko]

I was a bit puzzled by Dudamel conducting Mahler 3 at La Scala. It seems like he's reacting to the music instead of conducting it. Or maybe I just pay too much attention to his face, and I can't interpret the hand language anyways .

For the exactly opposite i.e. conductor actually giving instructions and cues in advance (as it should be)

Mravinsky / Leningrad / Shostakovich 5th, IV & II movements

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0iqZbM1Pdc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCTsAxr7BlU

[Sean]

The finale tempo is way over- what's he trying to do, make a ironically bombastic piece genuinely bombastic? The scherzo's about right but still affected by the period's anxiousness and misses the architectural intrigue and placing, and the absolutely blatant formal insistencies, and misguided woodwind flurries taken only as flurries, make me want to switch off before the end. Another conductor with a pre-given idea of a work not issuing from what it's saying.

[M forever]

Sean - are you consciously tring to look ridiculous, or does that come naturally to you without thinking about it? Mravinsky lived through the same times in the same place and same environment as DSCH did, he premiered this 5th symphony (as well as several others) and worked together very closely with DSCH for many years. DSCH saw him as the conductor who really understood his music and could bring it to life. Mravinsky did not make ostentatious musical gestures, his music making was always concentrated, to the point, essential. Mravinsky knew much better than you ever will what this music is about. The one with pre-given ideas (and really stupid ones at that) here is you. You should just shut up, listen and learn.

[Sean]

I'll check out a few other Youtube vids when I get time. It's easier if you just agree with me though, you know you want to...

[jochanaan]

I have actually said that a few times. I guess that doesn't surprise you... 0:)

Not a bit.

[Drasko]

Another conductor with surgically precise stick technique and utter absence of histrionics is Markevitch

Liebestod / ORTF / Markevitch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hompneV2QX4

[Greta]

At around the same 10 year period, the LSO downed bows and reeds and went on strike for one conductor; I THINK (50 years on) my father said it was Bernard Herrrman (an American from Hollywood).

Yes, he wasn't ever a LSO Prinicipal Conductor, but I guess that was for a recording, a fair few London musicians suffered through his failed conducting career...of course, this is Bernard Herrmann, the well-known composer for the Hitchcock films, who was dead set on being a famous classical conductor, but he was just too crochety and ill-tempered to succeed here. He did make some recordings on Phase 4 with the LPO, which are...interesting, to say the least.

Some basically OK conductors are also intolerable because they have mental problems and insecurities which they try to take out on the orchestra.

No kidding. My director for much of college, he was actually a decent guy at heart who cared about his students, and had excellent baton technique, but on the podium it was like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, yelling, screaming, temper tantrums, he loved to humiliate players or sections in front of their peers. Some just do not get that players do not play better out of fear and anger. To some extent, it can be a motivator, to come in knowing your parts and to be alert, but to get to that next level of music-making, it can be a huge detriment. For several years, we day-to-day experienced this poisonous, damaging atmosphere, that could really wreak havoc, temporarily, with one's self esteem. He liked to say we weren't trying hard enough, but really we were just disgusted at some point. Going into rehearsal cringing is not a good way to exist. One year, we lost a very good oboe player, a sweet girl who just didn't want to be subjected to this kind of thing (she wasn't a music major anyway), he couldn't convince her to stay, and realized in a way his folly. His last year he became a little more rational, and as culmination of his tenure we gave a really fantastic concert under him at a high profile convention, but listening to it now, there's still something that is lacking, he was more technically outstanding than emotionally. Highly respected for interesting programming and the detail he brought to his performances, but ego, whoo boy.

Good experiences: We really enjoyed playing under our very young assistant director, he could respectfully tell the band what he wanted and was a total livewire on the podium, great technique and this boundless joy that made for an exciting, enjoyable performance. My high school director, was totally not a livewire on the podium and he could be strict sure, but always so respectful and he had an unbelievevable rapport with us, we felt like he was a second father. He taught us a lot about the music we played, the composers and their lives, and life in general.

In All-Region band (the best students from a large area of schools are chosen by audition) we got to work with two composers who had been called in to conduct us in their own music, which was very interesting. One year was Martin Mailman, a little old guy with white tufty hair and requisite turtleneck, prof. from North Texas, we did a freely atonal introspective piece of his that was very good, even if it flew over our heads. We had no clue, for much of the time, what he was conducting. He told us he rarely conducted and only his music, therefore we kind of discovered at breaks that none of us were really watching him because we just could not tell where his beat was. We did an amazing Howard Hanson piece, that came off because you feel the band playing together and communicating rather than being led, a unique experience.

One year we had the composer David Holsinger, really memorable. He looks a little Santa Claus-ish, a tiny guy that just lights up on the podium. He was fantastic in every sense of the word, endlessly quotable and inspirational, we could've listened to him talk for hours. His technique was wonderfully clear, and full of emotion too, one time he even got so worked up he stabbed his shiny prominent cranium with his baton and ended up with a head wound we had to alert him of! When a composer can personally tell you what he had in mind behind the pieces and how it should sound, what it should evoke, that is priceless. One of the pieces we played was called "Fanfare for the Uncommon Man" and was dedicated to the longtime director at our local college who passed away, who had been a dear friend of his. He almost got choked up telling us of this man, and when we played this piece, at the last note much of the ensemble did not have dry eyes. That was very, very special.

In college, for a conducting master class we had Craig Kirchhoff, an outstanding conductor who really showed how *little* you sometimes have to do to give the band all it needs to know. A friend, a super trumpet player and musician, was up there doing Grainger's "Irish Tune from County Derry" (which is O Danny Boy, orchestrated for wind band), which has this amazing slow climax, and everything was in its place, but he had no facial expression, it just didn't take off. Kirchoff took the baton and said, "Look, it's all in the face", he got up there, gave us the downbeat and then never used his hands again, he conducted most of the piece using only his face and eyes, cueing and signaling soft, loud, it was really something. There was a lot more music-making going on there and the climax was overwhelming. We also once had Frank Battisti for a guest conductor, he has written a textbook on conducting that is widely used and is now old and frail, he could only sit on a stool to conduct. He had these wise laser-sharp eyes and could hear the slightest of tuning problems, his age limited his movements but he always had complete control.

I also think the amount of respect has a lot to do with how well an orchestra or band plays for their conductor, the ones that treat the players with respect and are known to be outstanding musicians, I could feel us give our all to - when that respect is lost or they are unsure of themselves, some of the magic just isn't there.

[uffeviking]

Greta, who are you quoting in your above posts 

[Drasko]

Greta, who are you quoting in your above posts 

I ain't Greta but do believe that first quote is from Harry Collier and second from M forever.

But here is one video clip especially for you, Lis. Your favorite conductor in action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5yc3yRjEe4

[uffeviking]

Thank you Drasko! How considerate of you. 

Yes, they are digging up the old black and white 'pirate' recordings and issuing them as DVDs. I have three of them and two more on pre-order. It's interesting because I already have the same concerts on those old b/w 'pirates' CDs; nice to see him in action! 

[Greta]

Fixed. There are some great Celibidache clips online...I know Lis would have the first, I would love to get it.

Rehearsing Till Eulenspiegel

Rehearsaing Prokofiev 1st with Munich Phil (Is this from a DVD?)

And a very young Celibidache with the Berlin Phil in wartime

[uffeviking]

Greta: Already have on DVD Celi's Till Eulenspiegel, rehearsal and performance; Bruckner's 9th and his Mass in F; also Berlioz Symphonie fantastique.

On preorder are Mozart's Symphony No. 2 and 39, plus Prokofiev's Symphony No. 5.

Fascinating to compare conducting by Boulez with Celibidache, to name just two I have watched lately.

[Cato]

A few days ago the Wall Street Journal carried a review of a book called Corresponding With Carlos by Charles Barber.

The author was a pen-friend of Carlos Kleiber, and the book attempts to explain the conductor's eccentricities by looking at their exchange of letters throughout the years.

The reviewer does not agree:

"The need for a biography is obvious, but this first attempt—"Corresponding With Carlos"—is a curate's egg, a book of two unequal halves. Charles Barber, conductor and artistic director at City Opera Vancouver, became Kleiber's pen-friend in the late 1980s...The biographical half of his book is hard-going, a trudge through lumpen text that often lacks cohesion."

Later:

"Mr. Barber's biographical narrative, blurring as much as it clarifies, is casually strewn with avoidable errors...However, once the book turns from biographical sketch to lively correspondence, we get the thrill of reading—hearing—the voice of Carlos Kleiber, and all is light.

English was Kleiber's native tongue, and he was never one for idle chat. In rehearsal, he said little to the players, leaving corrective "Kleibergrams" during coffee breaks on their desks. He apologizes in the letters to Mr. Barber for an "obnoxious sense of humour" and criticizes one of his own videos in which the Concertgebouw players "were so stolid and uninterested and . . . my hair was flying every which way (I had forgotten the hairspray, the most important thing for a conductor right after knowing how to tie your own bow-tie, having shirts the right size and wearing braces that don't shrink)."

He was enthralled by the ungainly Klaus Tennstedt on television, " 'cause he looked helpless and unpretentious and the orchestra . . . played for their lives!" He could be engagingly rude, deciding that "Boulez's poker face implies that the silly noise [he was conducting Varèse] neither surprises nor bothers him. Determined professionalism. It's a job, you see." He tells Mr. Barber that he is "never very rattled by Simon" (Rattle) and refers airily to Chicago's "Sir Salty" (Sir Georg Solti)."

See:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204553904577102761271195198.html?KEYWORDS=Kleiber#articleTabs%3Darticle

[Karl Henning]

"Kleibergrams": love it!

[Superhorn]

   It's fascinating and perplexing  the way different orchestras react differently to the same conductor.  One orchestra may hate his guts
and can't stand playing under him,while  another just adores him (or her) and loves  playing under him .
   For example , Christoph Eschenbach and the Houston symphony had a great relationship , and  the orchestra flourished under him .
But when he was chosen to succeed Sawalisch with the Philadelphia orchestra ,  the Philly musicians  just didn't have the same chemistry
with him , and  his contract was not renewed , and he  stepped down after only a few years .  They didn't hate him ,  but  the marriage just didn't work out .

[Mirror Image]

Two conductors I'm very impressed with right now are Edward Gardner and Ilan Volkov. I think both of these conductors have a bright future ahead of them.

[Cato]

   It's fascinating and perplexing  the way different orchestras react differently to the same conductor.  One orchestra may hate his guts
and can't stand playing under him,while  another just adores him (or her) and loves  playing under him .
   For example , Christoph Eschenbach and the Houston symphony had a great relationship , and  the orchestra flourished under him .
But when he was chosen to succeed Sawalisch with the Philadelphia orchestra ,  the Philly musicians  just didn't have the same chemistry
with him , and  his contract was not renewed , and he  stepped down after only a few years .  They didn't hate him ,  but  the marriage just didn't work out .

Jean Martinon at Chicago comes to mind: some of the conflicts were not his fault, according to some sources.  One writer says both he and Rafael Kubelik were chased out of Chicago for programming too much contemporary music.

See:

http://www.classicalstore.com/store/product/jean-martinon-jean-martinon-conducts-ravel

[Klaze]

Jean Martinon at Chicago comes to mind: some of the conflicts were not his fault, according to some sources.  One writer says both he and Rafael Kubelik were chased out of Chicago for programming too much contemporary music.

See:

http://www.classicalstore.com/store/product/jean-martinon-jean-martinon-conducts-ravel

I guess that refers to Chicago-based arts critic Claudia "acidy" Cassidy.

Related to that affair, I ran across this interesting post at http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.music.classical.recordings/2006-04/msg02176.html

[...]While she did in effect run Desire Defauw and Kubelik out of town as
conductors of the CSO, she didn't with Martinon. I lived through that
episode and have learned things since. There were other factors.

Claudia (I knew her, and she asked me to call her that) turned on
Martinon abruptly in (I think) 1966 and began to savage him in her
reviews after having been favorable toward him. The reasons were
personal, not musical, and were, as Tom said, vindictive. Disgraceful.
In any case, Chicagoans reacted to her third anti-conductor campaign
with fury. They sensed it happening yet again. CSO audience members
printed flyers attacking her and distributed them outside Orchestra
Hall before concerts. Others picketed Tribune Tower, the paper's
headquarters. Finally the Tribune exercised their option had forced her
into retirement (she was past 65). All of that happened around 1967,
before Martinon left the CSO in 1968, so she was out of the picture
when the time for renewal of Martinon's contract came up early that
year. The CSO board was indeed responsible for Martinon's departure
from Chicago, but not because they believed or bowed to Claudia
Cassidy. The story, as I've heard it from people in a position to know,
is even more amazing and stupid.

People on the board somehow got it into their heads that they could
hire Karajan to be the CSO's next music director. Karajan was then at
the peak of his career and power, and the idea that he would abandon
Europe for weeks at a time to conduct in Chicago was one that only
naive business magnates and dilettantes such as run American symphony
orchestra boards could entertain. Nevertheless, they went ahead with it
and started trying to woo him. After tantalizing the CSO amateurs for a
while, Karajan predictably said no.

When that happened, the CSO offered Martinon a new contract. The
music world being what it is, he had heard about the behind-his-back
Karajan discussions from the beginning. He turned the contract renewal
down and told a friend of mine who knew him well "I would have signed a
new contract except for that" (the Karajan business).

Finally -- regarding another message in this thread -- it's true that
Martinon had troubled relations with some CSO members because he tried
to "teach" them things. However, the problems arose with first-chair
players, winds in particular. According to what I have been told,
Martinon insisted upon "instructing" them how to phrase and play their
solo passages. That's not customary at all. Stokowski, Toscanini, and
Bruno Walter, among others, gave their first-chair players freedom and
didn't dictate how every note should be played. Even the martinet
Reiner did. So some CSO members resented Martinon. There was the huge
blow-up with principal oboist Ray Still around 1966, but this message
is already long enough![...]

[mahler10th]

I have been listening to the conductors of a golden age of composers doing Richard Strauss.  Wow.  Knappertsbusch doing the venereable Tod und Verklärung is a real ear opener.  Reiners Till Eulenspiegel is both compelling and beautiful.  I have listened to a few other pieces too.  Toscanini, Walter, Celibidache (a maniac in his early days)...et al...These bloody things are better than the much of what todays best conductors can offer.  By all the Gods, if we had the recording equipment back then to record as today, these old conductors would still be bestsellers.  And we would all be utterly staggered.   

EDIT:  It was Knappertsbusch doing the venereable Tod und Verklärung that made me splurge this..!

[Superhorn]

   John , I guarantee you that 40 or 50 years from now,  classical music fans and critics will be saying the very same about today's leading conductors .  They will sigh, oh where are the Dudamels,  Alan Gilberts, Abbados, Mutis, Barenboims,  Gergievs, Rattles, of the present
day ? The old maestros did it so much better .  Plus ca change .  .  .  .  .  .  .