Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Recommendations.

[Harry]

Of course, if Hartmann had written for lots of sopranos, mind . . . .

0:)

Well yes then I would..........................

[Sergeant Rock]

Thank you Edward for this explanation about the Wergo set.

I have the Wergo set. Sorry I can't compare it to Metzmacher but I can tell you the performces are very good, conducted by Kubelik (2, 4, 5, 6, 8 ), Leitner (3), Macal (7) and Rieger (1), and the 80s analog sound is wonderful: very natural with great clarity. It includes the "Gesangs-Szene" too with Fischer-Dieskau.

Sarge

[Harry]

I have the Wergo set. Sorry I can't compare it to Metzmacher but I can tell you the performces are very good, conducted by Kubelik (2, 4, 5, 6, 8 ), Leitner (3), Macal (7) and Rieger (1), and the 80s analog sound is wonderful: very natural with great clarity. It includes the "Gesang-Szene" too with Fischer-Dieskau.

Sarge

That is wonderful news Sarge, thank you very much.

[not edward]

A very exciting upcoming release from Orfeo, due out in June: http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//C718071B.htm

I don't know of available recordings of the Piano Concerto or Symphonische Hymnen, and the combination of Schneiderhan and Kubelik in the Concerto funebre is extremely appealing to me.

[karlhenning]

A very exciting upcoming release from Orfeo, due out in June: http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//C718071B.htm

I don't know of available recordings of the Piano Concerto or Symphonische Hymnen, and the combination of Schneiderhan and Kubelik in the Concerto funebre is extremely appealing to me.

Do you have a report yet, Edward? . . .

[not edward]

Do you have a report yet, Edward? . . .

I haven't seen any sign of this disc in Canada, unfortunately.

[paulb]

I have the Wergo set. Sorry I can't compare it to Metzmacher but I can tell you the performces are very good, conducted by Kubelik (2, 4, 5, 6, 8 ), Leitner (3), Macal (7) and Rieger (1), and the 80s analog sound is wonderful: very natural with great clarity. It includes the "Gesangs-Szene" too with Fischer-Dieskau.

Sarge

You have a  fine set of these masterpieces, the longest sym is the 3rd at 35 and the 4th at 31 minutes. All the others under 30 minutes. But don't let the relatively short timings fool you, these are dense well thought out gripping emotional toned symphonies. Interesting thing here in these 8 syms, there's nota   'dud' in the group. Whereas in shostakovich, everyone seems to pick and choose., with 1-4 not too popular.  Not here in Hartmann's 8, I've found all to be crafted with great attention, economy ,  and thus engaging..

Here you can read a excellent review on amazon, the lone review by Symond.

http://www.amazon.com/Karl-Amadeus-Hartmann-Symphonies-Gesangs-Szene/dp/B000025RFU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1200776924&sr=1-1

I see Caiman is offering as NEW. I thought it was OOP, Wergo is   a hard to obtain label here in the states.
Recorded 1950-1963, in stunning sound engineering ,stereo.
I know someone who heard both Metzmacher and this Wergo, a  guy by the name of Steve, long ago member of GMG, he favored the Wergo.
If you hear me too often mention Hartmann, its beacuse for the past decades its been nothing but Shostakovich in the spot-light. Time to bring in a new composer, worthy to stand tall next to Shostakovich as far as symphonic literature.
Here are the year dates of the syms
1:  35/36
2:  Adagio 46
3:  48/49 (revised? so later dates than the 4rd?)
4:  47
5:  50
6:  52/53
7:  56/58
8:  60/62

I was unawre that Hartmann lived into the 1960's til now and scored his last in 60/62!! I had thought he was earlier and ended early 50's. To my surprise.

also have this 5,6, 8 /Berlin Classics, luckily still easily avaliable. Don't you just hate when good things go OOP, and you find out about the CD after its deleted from production

have not recently compared the 2 recordings, and have no plans to , as memory recalls both were "top-notch".

http://www.amazon.com/Hartmann-Symphony-No-Concertante-8/dp/B0000035S1/ref=sr_1_33?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1200778300&sr=1-33

[paulb]

They're not all worth owning IMO...the best of the lot are 6, 7 & 8. Highly charged works! That Berlin classics disc is a good one...

gee you and i just have different opinions, as i left a  note to you on the Rosen recording of Carter.
In  these Hartmann 1-5, you may be looking for something more than whats there. To me they are highly intreguing. And as everyone here knows i'm one tough critic. It takes quite alot to get me interested and keep that interest.
For instance the 1-5 I find much more appealing to me tahn the Sibelius 7 syms. i realize they were not exactly contemporaries, but still within that time range. Sibelius was stuck in the old romantic traditions.
And i much prefer listening to the 1-5 to anything from the famous and ever popular  Stravinsky.
Just different sets of ears i guess.

[paulb]

Christ. 
Hartmann symphonies over the very best of Stravinsky? & Sibelius? Fair enough but...

yeah i have a  few "odd-ball' opinions and "peculiar" interests in CM, but what can i say, its all about individual choices. Right?
many Sibelius-ians have even yet to hear Hartmann's best, the 6,7,8 syms, so in some sense i'm ahead in things CM.

[paulb]

6, 7 & 8 are fine, but absolutely nowhere near Sibelius's best efforts in the genre, which are incredibly great & highly original. Keep listening.

I forgot to mention on the Stravinsky comment. I feel Stravinsky's best 2 ballets should be experience at the ballet to be appreciated. I just never came around to stravinsky all that much, might have to do with the biography of Stravinsky and other contemporaries.
That is i know just what hartmann went through, whereas Stravisnky had narrowly escaped all the major trepidations and conflicts, via paris and the US. The nazis "did in " Hartmann, so there's the heroic element in his music i identify with.
Hartmann represents the real world for me, Stravisnky is fantasy world.
On Sibelius, , big fan in early days, had 5 or 6 recordings of the syms. Both Barbirolli, Segerstam/Danish, the one on Berlin Classics, Davis/Boston, both Berglund, various other singles....lately its only the Kullervo thats stayed with me, and somewhat the Lemminkainen Legends. Even those didn't strike me as "essential listening" after last hearing. I am much more attracted to Debussy and Ravel from that era, as well to Bartok.
Doesn't have to be either/or, its just the way it ends up with me. Why listen to something i'm only partly interested about when i could be spinning music that totally captivates me, is sort of how i  hear things.

[paulb]

I certainly don't require that to love Stravinsky's music...you should look more into him, he's truly a great composer, many great great works. & Sibelius at his best, was one of the most original symphonists ever...

I know Stravinsky was a  superb composer, shaking paris off its feet and still he gathers a flock of fans. Boulez adores Stravinsky, Bartok was highly impressed with Stravinsky when he visited Hungary with his latest ballets. The Woonden Prince has influences  from Stravisnky, but i much prefer the Wooden Prince to Stravinsky. Same With Debussy's work that came out same yr as Rite of Sping, I favor Debussy. Hartmann's sym 4 , 1st movement, much there that is Stravinskian.Seems everyone in those days were copying elements off Stravinsky.
Or did Stravinsky get some ideas off Debussy? Jung would call that synchronicity.
But its Hartmann that stikes the chords in me. Stravinsky never has in 20 yrs, and doubtfully ever will. Its   a lost cause. there's something about Stravsinsky that I am not so sure about.
Whereas Hartmann is the man who withstood the nazis
Yet that alone is not what draws me so intensely to his music, the music itself has this unique creative character.
<<<Its Hartmann and no other, there's real substance, the music is effective.>>>>

<<<< Unlike most the late 20th C avant garde composers who offer little strikingly unique or significant>>>>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Amadeus_Hartmann

http://www.musicweb-international.com/Hartmann/index.htm

Now notice "some have lauded H as the greatest german symphonist" so apparently there are others who feel the same as I do. In fact the only german symphonist i listen to  is Hartmann.

before i forget to mention, hartmann had some study with...WEBERN!
Now I'll have to loacte the Youtube clip featuring Boulez in conversation on the 3 second viennes greats. Just briefly said that whereas Schonberg has roots in Brahms, Berg , can;'t recall what Boulez said, and that strangely enough Webern seems not to have any roots that one can trace backwards.
Really interesting and must be heard.
So Hartmann had one of the most originals as teachers, though they did not see things the same too often.

[paulb]

And calling Hartmann the greatest german symphonist is a bit much, as hardly any of his stuff has had legs since to back up such a claim...compared to great German symphonists like Beethoven? Brahms? or even Schumann? who's symphonies have had legs and are regularly performed and recorded in copious amounts...can't say the same for Hartmann.

Indeed, all the ones you mention plus Mahler (viennese?), and Bruckner offer far far (2X's) much greater structures , forms, breath and length than Hartmann ever does in any of the 8.
But what i am refering to is the emotional content of Hartmann which speaks something of importance to me in the year 2008. Hartmann is alive. The others are old forms, i get absoluetly nothing out of those composers. Music to be of any value to me, has to strike the emotions which impact my life in 2008.
There's that alternative approach to music which solely embraces the individual and specifically excludes the historic sense.

[paulb]

I get your perspective paul, we all have our preferences & reasons for liking what we do...but I want to add an obvious point that because music was done of an earlier time doesn't exclude it's capability to be timeless & eternal....truly great works of art speak and transcend over many centuries and generations, they are invaluable, for their artistic beauty, extraordinary musical content & ability to evoke powerful emotions etc. etc.

Thanks for understanding my idosyncratic,"peculiar" approach to music. i think its abit too excessive to use the word 'absoluetly", there are some Schnumann piano works that are interesting. I think my perspective would alter if i heard many of the romantics in concert.
Wagner's late operas I admire immensely. So agree 19th C composers can be just alive as music written late 20Th C.
The Hartmann syms though uniquely expressed , does borrow on  ideas  of Bartok, Stravinsky and Varese.
I may have to readjust my comment about greatest german symphonist. In spite of that, H is the only german symphonist i listen to.

[Guido]

After hearing his wonderful violin concerto I am eager to explore more... I will look into some of the things on this thread.

Wikipedia mentions a cello concerto of 1933 that is now lost. Does anyone know more about this piece - when it says lost, does it mean literally they can't find it, or do they know that it has been destroyed. The intended soloist was Vilmos Palotai but the Jstor article I read was unclear as to whether he ever managed to premiere it despite numerous attempts to fix concert dates...

Anyway, a fascinating composer and I look forward to hearing more.

(Have just checked and the Wergo set is in my University Library! I am very pleased...)

[paulb]

After hearing his wonderful violin concerto I am eager to explore more... I will look into some of the things on this thread.

Wikipedia mentions a cello concerto of 1933 that is now lost. Does anyone know more about this piece - when it says lost, does it mean literally they can't find it, or do they know that it has been destroyed. The intended soloist was Vilmos Palotai but the Jstor article I read was unclear as to whether he ever managed to premiere it despite numerous attempts to fix concert dates...

Anyway, a fascinating composer and I look forward to hearing more.

(Have just checked and the Wergo set is in my University Library! I am very pleased...)

Thats great news your university ML has the Wergo set! I would have guessed the Metzmacher set, as its more readily avaliable. i guess your ML aquired the H syms yrs ago. But thats pretty amazing that your U ML has the syms? Unreal, as H is , as with pettersson, pretty far off any trodden path.
Look forward to another opinion on the quality of the syms, as they appeal to you and their place in mid/late 20th C symphonic genre.
I may have gone abit extended in my appreciatives of the syms, but I feel they offer at least on the level of some 20th C  (Varese, Ives) and even more than many(too many to list) other popular late 20th C composers.
I'm happy to turn to the 8 syms once in awhile, more often than say than I consider  Ives.

[not edward]

Hartmann is definitely closer to repertory status than Pettersson: Kubelik championed much of his music, and the 6th symphony was also taken up by Fricsay, Leitner and others--not to mention Gertler, Scheiderhan and the many other violinists who took up the Concerto funebre, a work which still pops up on concert programs every now and then. The more recent era has been less kind to Hartmann, but he does seem to have a fairly solid place as a bridge between the Berg and Henze generations.

I'm still hoping for a big-name conductor to take up the 6th, as I think this is a piece that could have mass appeal (to some extent, I think the same of the 2nd and 8th).

Guido: The Wergo set is definitely superior to Metzmacher--so enjoy (and rip) it. It used to be listed on amazon.co.uk for about 12 pounds (they'd priced it as a 1CD set) but I suspect it's reverted to a higher price.

[paulb]

Hartmann is definitely closer to repertory status than Pettersson: Kubelik championed much of his music, and the 6th symphony was also taken up by Fricsay, Leitner and others--not to mention Gertler, Scheiderhan and the many other violinists who took up the Concerto funebre, a work which still pops up on concert programs every now and then. The more recent era has been less kind to Hartmann, but he does seem to have a fairly solid place as a bridge between the Berg and Henze generations.

I'm still hoping for a big-name conductor to take up the 6th, as I think this is a piece that could have mass appeal (to some extent, I think the same of the 2nd and 8th).

Guido: The Wergo set is definitely superior to Metzmacher--so enjoy (and rip) it. It used to be listed on amazon.co.uk for about 12 pounds (they'd priced it as a 1CD set) but I suspect it's reverted to a higher price.

thank you sir.
I heard the complete 8 past weekend, and now am going back for "second helpings"  transversing the complete set once again.
but here's the problem, I'm hypnotized by the 1st and 3rd syms, dics 1 of the 4 cd Wergo set.
Transfixed to playing the 1st cd over and over..weird i know. i get like that. Not sure why. i do the same thing with Kurt Weill's 1st sym. So i don't often play it, the thing has strange affects on me and draws me into a sound world that i can't easily pull myself out of. Its like I'm transported into a  realm beyond my powers to say , do not hit replay.

gotta runn...............

[Guido]

They have two copies of the complete symphonies on Wergo no less! I imagine that there is some Hartmann enthusiast in the faculty. If he's as good as Ives, then I am looking forward to it even more.

[pjme]

Guido, since you are a cellist I want to point out that on the French Naive label, Anne Gastinel performs Eric Tanguy's ( °1968) two celloconcerti ( resp. 1994/1995 and 2000)French Nat.O. /Alain Altinoglu. The CD gets very good reviews : accessible ,yet contemporary music.

Peter

I have the Wergo/ Hartmann Cd's for years now . discoved him through the old DGG LP of symph. 6
Give the Gesangsszene ( baritione + orch) also a chance. A very dark work ... DFDieskau give s a superb performance.

[Guido]

Thanks for the recommendation - I am always looking out for new 20th century cello concertos, especially ones of real quality. I will order it.

Guido, since you are a cellist I want to point out that on the French Naive label, Anne Gastinel performs Eric Tanguy's ( °1968) two celloconcerti ( resp. 1994/1995 and 2000)French Nat.O. /Alain Altinoglu. The CD gets very good reviews : accessible ,yet contemporary music.

Peter

I have the Wergo/ Hartmann Cd's for years now . discoved him through the old DGG LP of symph. 6
Give the Gesangsszene ( baritione + orch) also a chance. A very dark work ... DFDieskau give s a superb performance.