Elgar's Hillside

[DavidRoss]

Of course, I know David never used the word 'propaganda'. But, like Alan, I sense behind the 'swagger and bombast' a prejudice about Elgar that was quite prevalent - Elgar as the apologist of Empire. The symphonies transcend the long-dead British Empire, being great music, where the personal and the public are perfectly interfused, just like Mahler did with his dying Empire.

No extra-musical considerations for me, I just don't much care for that loud, brassy, in-your-face stuff, whether by Elgar, Bruckner, or John Phillip Sousa.  A little goes a long way with me and even Mahler crosses the line at times.  Perhaps it's a deficiency in me, akin to some folks' dislike for the scrunchy sound of real gut strings.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

No extra-musical considerations for me, I just don't much care for that loud, brassy, in-your-face stuff, whether by Elgar, Bruckner, or John Phillip Sousa.  A little goes a long way with me and even Mahler crosses the line at times.  Perhaps it's a deficiency in me, akin to some folks' dislike for the scrunchy sound of real gut strings.

Fair enough. It's difficult to change a temperament. I don't like the vocal Bach myself...

[Sergeant Rock]

No extra-musical considerations for me, I just don't much care for that loud, brassy, in-your-face stuff, whether by Elgar, Bruckner, or John Phillip Sousa....even Mahler crosses the line at times.

I was going to say, David uses the word bombast a lot to describe music most of us just find thrilling.  Don't be offended. David's not normal   

Listening to Falstaff now. Maybe the problem most of you have with the work is that you're not listening to Barbirolli. Wow, he's great here...the music spectacular.

Sarge

[Mirror Image]

Really glad that you are enjoying Elgar a lot more this time round! More for you to explore! Not sure if you know the oratorios yet? Much beautiful music to be found there! And some really excellent chamber music as well, although Elgar's real excellence did lie in the orchestral music!

I've got the EMI box of choral music that I've been meaning to listen to more of. This is the set I'm referring to, Daniel:

[asin]B000I0SGXK[/asin]

[Mirror Image]

Good to hear people getting better into Elgar. 

Yes, Elgar seems to be that kind of composer. His compositions don't reveal everything on first listening. I have been talking about multidimensionality. That is, I feel Elgar was able to control musical dimensions (melody, harmony, timbre, rhythm, development etc.) so that they can operate together to form more complex musical structures than the notes on the score would indicate.

One work that I've always admired by Elgar is his Cello Concerto. Man, this is just a gripping piece of music from start to finish.

[TheGSMoeller]

http://www.youtube.com/v/_J-Iwtzzge8&feature=player_embedded#!


Du Pre makes her cello cry.

[Mirror Image]

http://www.youtube.com/v/_J-Iwtzzge8&feature=player_embedded#!


Du Pre makes her cello cry.

Du Pre owns the Elgar Cello Concerto as far as I'm concerned. So much passion.

[Sergeant Rock]

Great photos. I especially like the last one. Shop out all but the central figure and you have a Caspar David Friedrich 




Sarge

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Of course, I know David never used the word 'propaganda'. But, like Alan, I sense behind the 'swagger and bombast' a prejudice about Elgar that was quite prevalent - Elgar as the apologist of Empire. The symphonies transcend the long-dead British Empire, being great music, where the personal and the public are perfectly interfused, just like Mahler did with his dying Empire.

I've always found this attitude unfair to Elgar. Brahms wrote a bombastic Triumphlied celebrating German victory over France; Tchaikovsky wrote the 1812 Overture; the young Beethoven composed a cantata to celebrate the new Holy Roman Emperor, as well as the notorious Wellington's Victory. Yet it doesn't seem to have hurt their reputations any. This sort of patriotic-bombastic production was totally normal in that age. Why single out Elgar for criticism?

[Elgarian]

This sort of patriotic-bombastic production was totally normal in that age. Why single out Elgar for criticism?

The sort of thing you're criticising is a kind of chronological fallacy: that of projecting our modern sensibilities and preoccupations into the past. We tend to do a lot of it, and, worse, we do it inaccurately. That is, we allow anything else that has a similar flavour to become infected with it in our fancied historical world view. But in truth I don't think anyone here in this thread has been doing that at all. Even Dave, in using the words in his initial post, was talking purely about his own personal response to the music, and wasn't actually accusing Elgar himself either of swagger or of bombast.

So the issue you raise actually hasn't been an issue in the discussion so far - for which indeed, all of us are thankful I should imagine.

But also, one of the points we've been asserting repeatedly is that there's surprisingly little bombastic and swaggering music in Elgar's oeuvre. Remarkably little, considering the prevalence of the popular view.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

But also, one of the points we've been asserting repeatedly is that there's surprisingly little bombastic and swaggering music in Elgar's oeuvre. Remarkably little, considering the prevalence of the popular view.

Yes, absolutely. And in his major works, when the "swaggering" does appear, it has an aesthetic function, something that is necessary to the dramatic structure of the work. It can be moderated, ironized, transformed into its opposite, and so forth.

[karlhenning]

HOW TO COPE WITH THE FINALE OF CARACTACUS

Aye, beautiful pics, thanks, Alan!

[karlhenning]

I've always found this attitude unfair to Elgar. Brahms wrote a bombastic Triumphlied celebrating German victory over France; Tchaikovsky wrote the 1812 Overture; the young Beethoven composed a cantata to celebrate the new Holy Roman Emperor, as well as the notorious Wellington's Victory. Yet it doesn't seem to have hurt their reputations any. This sort of patriotic-bombastic production was totally normal in that age. Why single out Elgar for criticism?

I think (and starting off on the record as agreeing that it ain't fair on Elgar), it could be tied to the fact that all the examples you've cited are a bit more ancient, and much more local. In Elgar's case (albeit unjustly), his epoch is linked to The Great War, which was monumental folly, and hitherto unprecedented carnage.  That this still feels uncomfortably fresh and contemporary, was driven home again as I watched Black Adder Goes Forth this past week.

[karlhenning]

BTW, great discussion, as is customary here, chaps. Thanks!

[Vesteralen]

Alan (if I may be allowed to copy k a r l), I saw earlier on this thread that you recommended a book or two about certain facets of Elgar's life.

I was wondering what, if any, one volume biography of Elgar covering his whole life, you would recommend.  (sorry if you may have addressed this before somewhere, but 58 pages of posts is a lot to go through)

I've been reading Anderson's biography in the Master Musician series, and it is a good source for information, to a degree.  But, as a biography it isn't that appealing.  It's written so choppily it's more like the author's notebooks just reprinted for publication.  I'm looking for something that is a bit more 'literary', for lack of a better word.

[Elgarian]

Yes, absolutely. And in his major works, when the "swaggering" does appear, it has an aesthetic function, something that is necessary to the dramatic structure of the work. It can be moderated, ironized, transformed into its opposite, and so forth.

Oh that's perfectly expressed. I wish I'd said that. Imagine me nodding violently in agreement, if you please.

A classic example of that occurs in the final movement of the 1st symphony (I've only mentioned this 99 times before, so it needs more emphasis). He sets up a kind of militaristic march ('rum tum tum tiddle, rum tum tum tum, rum tum tum, tiddle tummm'), and taken in isolation one could imagine cocking an ear and saying oh yes, here we go, swagger swagger, here come the British Bullies. But the march exists solely for the purpose of transfiguration - the swaggertune itself is transformed and redeemed into one of the most exquisite passages in all of Elgar. It's no exaggeration to say that that moment of transformation alone would elevate Elgar into my list of favourite composers.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Oh that's perfectly expressed. I wish I'd said that. Imagine me nodding violently in agreement, if you please.

A classic example of that occurs in the final movement of the 1st symphony (I've only mentioned this 99 times before, so it needs more emphasis). He sets up a kind of militaristic march ('rum tum tum tiddle, rum tum tum tum, rum tum tum, tiddle tummm'), and taken in isolation one could imagine cocking an ear and saying oh yes, here we go, swagger swagger, here come the British Bullies. But the march exists solely for the purpose of transfiguration - the swaggertune itself is transformed and redeemed into one of the most exquisite passages in all of Elgar. It's no exaggeration to say that that moment of transformation alone would elevate Elgar into my list of favourite composers.

I know the passage you mean. Yes, it's a miraculous moment.

[cilgwyn]

Lovely photographs Elgarian. Spectacular!

[karlhenning]

Well, stap my vitals!  The Dutton disc with The Spirit of England arrived yesterday . . . seems that in all events the duplication is value added, as the Dutton appears to be the first recording of the piece with two solo voices.

[Elgarian]

I was wondering what, if any, one volume biography of Elgar covering his whole life, you would recommend.  (sorry if you may have addressed this before somewhere, but 58 pages of posts is a lot to go through)

That's a harder question than you might think. While I've read some truly fine books on Elgar, I've never read what I'd consider to be a really good general biography (I mean by that, something that's a real pleasure to read, rather than to gather facts from). The one that most would consider definitive is Jerrold Northrop Moore's Edward Elgar: A Creative Life. But it's a great doorstop of a book, it's hideously expensive, and I've never actually sat down to read it from cover to cover. It's a book I consult quite often, but read only in short bursts - though I'm sure there are some who'll say this is unfair treatment of it.

Rather than recommend a biography that I don't really recommend (if you see what I mean), I think I can serve you better (even though it's not what you asked for) by pointing more towards the 'I knew Elgar' type of book, and suggest that it's possible to gradually assimilate the life in that way. So there's Dora Powell's Memories of a Variation; Rosa Burley's Edward Elgar: Record of a Friendship; and Billy Reed's Elgar as I Knew Him - these are three of the most precious books on my shelves. They are, of course, of their time (that's their value) and thereby out of date - so if you want the lowdown on the Windflower and on Vera Hockman, you have to look elsewhere. On Vera Hockman (the love of Elgar's last years), you want Kevin Allen's Elgar in Love.

I can get this far without going and looking at my Elgar bookshelves and more serious thought. I'll leave it here for now, seek inspiration later, and report back.