Haydn's Haus

[Gurn Blanston]

How did John Cage get in here? 

Thread duty:  found in the used CD bin at FYE the Dorati recording of The Creation (with Salve Regina).   I'm looking forward to it, considering that of the three recordings I already own, only one (Bernstein) is MI.  (Jacobs and McCreesh are the other two.)

Nice! I think Dorati did much for Haydn, and despite the fact that they are old recordings, there is certainly nothing about them that is in any way a turnoff. Having never heard it myself, I can only ask that you let us know how you like it compared to, say, Jacobs. I don't think I have any MI 'Creation', I'll have to check. I do have Karajan's 'Seasons' though...

[kishnevi]

Nice! I think Dorati did much for Haydn, and despite the fact that they are old recordings, there is certainly nothing about them that is in any way a turnoff. Having never heard it myself, I can only ask that you let us know how you like it compared to, say, Jacobs. I don't think I have any MI 'Creation', I'll have to check. I do have Karajan's 'Seasons' though...

Will put it on now.  Although I just realized the Salve Regina is with a completely different cast of performers--Laszlo Heltay conducting the Argo Chamber Orchestra and London Chamber Choir, whomever he and they are.  But at least I've heard of the soloists--Arleen Auger, Alfreda Hodgson, Anthony Rolfe Johnson,  and Gwynne Howell.   Dorati uses five soloists for The Creation: Popp, Hollweg, Moll, Dose, Luxon, with the Royal Philharmonic and Brighton Festival Chorus--for whom the chorus master is Laszlo Heltay.  Well, at least I know where he came into this project from.

And I see that Dorati not only conducts, but is one of the continuo group (harpsichord).

Salve Regina comes first on this two-fer, so I probably won't report until tomorrow (it will almost be time for me to say nighty night by the time the recording finishes).

[Gurn Blanston]

Will put it on now.  Although I just realized the Salve Regina is with a completely different cast of performers--Laszlo Heltay conducting the Argo Chamber Orchestra and London Chamber Choir, whomever he and they are.  But at least I've heard of the soloists--Arleen Auger, Alfreda Hodgson, Anthony Rolfe Johnson,  and Gwynne Howell.   Dorati uses five soloists for The Creation: Popp, Hollweg, Moll, Dose, Luxon, with the Royal Philharmonic and Brighton Festival Chorus--for whom the chorus master is Laszlo Heltay.  Well, at least I know where he came into this project from.

And I see that Dorati not only conducts, but is one of the continuo group (harpsichord).

Salve Regina comes first on this two-fer, so I probably won't report until tomorrow (it will almost be time for me to say nighty night by the time the recording finishes).

Oh yes, nice soloists. I'm a big Auger fan, I have a disk of her singing with Hogwood and the Handel & Haydn Society Orchestra that's just lovely. Nice music for late night contemplation. See ya!

[kishnevi]

Nearing the end of Part III, and I've got a fairly good impression of it.  It is in fact a good one, sonics done very well,  and the differences can be described more or less as what you'd imagine when comparing an excellent MI performance with an excellent PI performance.   Choral parts are not as sharp and individual sounding as they are on Jacobs or McCreesh,  but that's probably a function of the size of the chorus.  And the sound is much better than on the Bernstein, although Lenny's was recording in concert and this one was apparently not.  In fact, the only reason not to like this recording would be because you're a doctrinaire PI advocate, and since you're not.....

ETA: the "Creation of Light" was especially memorable, and more so than on Jacobs or McCreesh.

[Leon]

A new (to me) PI keyboardist and Hadyn recording:

[asin]B0030UO9LI[/asin]

Carole Cerasi is a British keyboardist sepcialzing in harpsichord, clavichord and fortepiano performance, mainly of French Baroque, but also CPE Bach and the above referenced disc.  So far, I am impressed.

I linked her website which provides a bio and other information, e.g. on her PI trio "Ensemble Turk" which might also be worthwhile checking out.

[Gurn Blanston]

A new (to me) PI keyboardist and Hadyn recording:

[asin]B0030UO9LI[/asin]

Carole Cerasi is a British keyboardist sepcialzing in harpsichord, clavichord and fortepiano performance, mainly of French Baroque, but also CPE Bach and the above referenced disc.  So far, I am impressed.

I linked her website which provides a bio and other information, e.g. on her PI trio "Ensemble Turk" which might also be worthwhile checking out.

I predict that ultimately you will really like that disk. I got it when it was released and have listened to it many times since. She really has a nice way with the music, like Haydn's dialect is her own. Nice sounding instruments, too!

[Gurn Blanston]

I linked her website which provides a bio and other information, e.g. on her PI trio "Ensemble Turk" which might also be worthwhile checking out.

That trio looks very interesting. The players are all very familiar, esp. Pavlo Benznosiuk. I wish they had listed a few of their recordings, although all I see is her solo stuff.

[Wakefield]

Nice! I think Dorati did much for Haydn, and despite the fact that they are old recordings, there is certainly nothing about them that is in any way a turnoff. Having never heard it myself, I can only ask that you let us know how you like it compared to, say, Jacobs. I don't think I have any MI 'Creation', I'll have to check. I do have Karajan's 'Seasons' though...

These days I have been tempted by the opportunity of an attractively priced box set of the complete symphonies. It's not a bargain ( around $100), but this is an item quite OOP.

What do you think, Gurn, should I purchase this box? 

[Gurn Blanston]

These days I have been tempted by the opportunity of an attractively priced box set of the complete symphonies. It's not a bargain ( around $100), but this is an item quite OOP.

What do you think, Gurn, should I purchase this box? 

Well, ALF, I know you like historic things way more than I do, and despite the fact that this isn't a rarity, it is of great historic value since Dorati's recording of the symphonies was what finally brought Haydn to most people. It wasn't the first, but of the early things that I've heard and heard of, it was the best. I have the "Paris" Double-Decca (my first version of those works) and "Morning, Noon & Night" disk and I think even today that they are pretty fine. I personally think a lot of those historic things are not worth my time and money, but this box certainly doesn't fall into that category. 

That's my opinion, I might be wrong.  0:)

[Wakefield]

Well, ALF, I know you like historic things way more than I do, and despite the fact that this isn't a rarity, it is of great historic value since Dorati's recording of the symphonies was what finally brought Haydn to most people. It wasn't the first, but of the early things that I've heard and heard of, it was the best. I have the "Paris" Double-Decca (my first version of those works) and "Morning, Noon & Night" disk and I think even today that they are pretty fine. I personally think a lot of those historic things are not worth my time and money, but this box certainly doesn't fall into that category. 

That's my opinion, I might be wrong.  0:)

Thanks! A well reasoned response, as usual.

I don't have any recording by Dorati because he is a bit before my time as a Haydn listener and, basically, because I think a lot when I purchase any Haydn or Mozart played on modern instruments. Even more than I do when I buy, for instance, some Bach disc.

Dorati sounds fine, my only concern is that his recordings seem a little bit "string-oriented"; but maybe it's just YouTube.

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks! A well reasoned response, as usual.

I don't have any recording by Dorati because he is a bit before my time as a Haydn listener and, basically, because I think a lot when I purchase any Haydn or Mozart played on modern instruments. Even more than I do when I buy, for instance, some Bach disc.

Dorati sounds fine, my only concern is that his recordings seem a little bit "string-oriented"; but maybe it's just YouTube.

Haydn's own orchestra was a tad string heavy too, FWIW.   I know what you mean though about really having to ponder before buying something that's out of your comfort zone, so to speak. One thing about it though, if you subscribe to the concept of orchestras having an idiom based on their traditions, I think it is safe to say that the Philharmonica Hungarica stems from the same tradition, carried over the long arc of time, that spawned the Esterháza Orchestra. I know that not everyone believes in that concept, but I think it's valid. Certainly they have more in common than either does with, say, another orchestra from a different tradition like the LSO or the Concertgebouworkest. Just ruminating.   Anyway, sound quality is good too, at least on my 3 disks.

[Wakefield]

Haydn's own orchestra was a tad string heavy too, FWIW.   I know what you mean though about really having to ponder before buying something that's out of your comfort zone, so to speak. One thing about it though, if you subscribe to the concept of orchestras having an idiom based on their traditions, I think it is safe to say that the Philharmonica Hungarica stems from the same tradition, carried over the long arc of time, that spawned the Esterháza Orchestra. I know that not everyone believes in that concept, but I think it's valid. Certainly they have more in common than either does with, say, another orchestra from a different tradition like the LSO or the Concertgebouworkest. Just ruminating.   

Well, I subscribe this concept and that's the reason why IMO -I know you think other way here-, the Tátrai Quartet is so good, the same that, for instance, Sándor Végh conducting Mozart's serenades & divertimenti (although with an Austrian orchestra). 

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, I subscribe this concept and that's the reason why IMO -I know you think other way here-, the Tátrai Quartet is so good, the same that, for instance, Sándor Végh conducting Mozart's serenades & divertimenti (although with an Austrian orchestra).

If Sándor Végh's players used PI's I would like them a lot. I miss the tone color, but I don't fault the playing.   The Tátrai Quartet just feel too overly Romantic to me, in their Op 50 & 76 (all I have) they seem to try to wring way out more emotion than any Classicist would imply. Their playing is impeccable, I just prefer it in different repertoire, late & post-Schubert. That said, yes, the same organic elements in their ancestry.

[Wakefield]

If Sándor Végh's players used PI's I would like them a lot. I miss the tone color, but I don't fault the playing.

No doubt, played on period instruments those recordings would be a landmark.

The Tátrai Quartet just feel too overly Romantic to me, in their Op 50 & 76 (all I have) they seem to try to wring way out more emotion than any Classicist would imply. Their playing is impeccable, I just prefer it in different repertoire, late & post-Schubert. That said, yes, the same organic elements in their ancestry.

Regarding the Tátrai I don't consider their interpretations over romanticized, although obviously they are not HIP; I would call them pre-HIP (like Walcha or Richter in Bach). I particularly like their controlled vibrato, quite unusual for the string quartets of their age.

[DavidW]

Regarding the Tátrai I don't consider their interpretations over romanticized, although obviously they are not HIP; I would call them pre-HIP (like Walcha or Richter in Bach). I particularly like their controlled vibrato, quite unusual for the string quartets of their age.

That is fair.  Richter, Walcha and Tatrai stand out as unusual.  Trying to be something different but still not different enough.  You end up with music that is not indulgent yet not idiomatic.  Interpretations with moments of brilliance and many passages where they are stumbling to find the right path.  Serious when it should be joyous, matter of fact when it is fine to be emotional. 

[Leon]

Listening , and enjoying quite a bit, this (new to me) program of string quratets by Quartuor Suk:



Their way with these works is very pleasing - especially the Menuet of 76/2 - which can come across, in less capable hands, as plodding and not very graceful.  With Quatuor Suk, by contrast, the music lifts lightly.

[SonicMan46]

Hi Guys - I've been scarce from the classical threads lately - doing a lot of house renovations & workshop projects, so spending a LOT of time on my woodworking forums, and also trying to go through my non-classical CD collection (enjoying but disposing of many!) - just put in a few new classical CD orders, so will be back more actively in the near future! 

BUT, just received the Sept-Oct issues of Fanfare & American Record Guide - in the latter was a review of the Beghin box of Haydn keyboard works played on various instruments; I know that a number of us, including me, own this set that has been generally appreciated here; however the American Record Guide review (which I've attached from my online account - don't tell on me!) is a rather scathing attack on this production - don't know the reviewer but would be curious of comments from others - thanks.  Dave

[Karl Henning]

Thanks, Dave! Why, just this weekend past I worked a little at listening against a still-too-large Beghin deficit ....

[kishnevi]

Hi Guys - I've been scarce from the classical threads lately - doing a lot of house renovations & workshop projects, so spending a LOT of time on my woodworking forums, and also trying to go through my non-classical CD collection (enjoying but disposing of many!) - just put in a few new classical CD orders, so will be back more actively in the near future! 

BUT, just received the Sept-Oct issues of Fanfare & American Record Guide - in the latter was a review of the Beghin box of Haydn keyboard works played on various instruments; I know that a number of us, including me, own this set that has been generally appreciated here; however the American Record Guide review (which I've attached from my online account - don't tell on me!) is a rather scathing attack on this production - don't know the reviewer but would be curious of comments from others - thanks.  Dave

Well, someone should draw his attention to Brautigam--he writes as if that set doesn't even exist.
Personally, I'm quite satisfied with Beghin, and with Brautigam, and the set of other than sonatas by van Oort (I don't have the multi player set from Brilliant).  When I want Haydn on modern piano,  I have Hamelin.  Which is why, though I dashed off to get Bavouzet's Beethoven a couple of months ago,  I've not gotten his Haydn.

[Gurn Blanston]

I agree with that, Jeffrey. If you will note his "favorites", not a single one of them is either on original instruments OR played by any pianist who attempts to follow an historic style. As he mentions himself early on, "We've been spoiled with the supple, beautifully rhetorical Haydn performances of players like Schiff and Bavouzet ". Yes, he has!

Like so many, he can't get the sound of modern performance out of your head in order to be able to actually appreciate what is being presented. He can't get past the 200 years of stylistic accretion which is piled on top of the original music being played in the original style. If the playing was done in a modern style, then what would be the point of playing it on authentically recreated instruments? You would just play it on a Steinway and be done with it! I'm not arguing that there is anything wrong with Schiff and Bavouzet (of Hamelin for that matter, or any of those others). I'm saying that they are no basis for comparison with what Beghin is doing. At the very least, compare him to Brautigam, Schornsheim, or Wataya, Staier, Oort, Bilson, Fuller... and even then, the essential difference is a lack of compromise being made for the sake of entertainment value. If that makes Beghin an academic, then so be it. It certainly doesn't devalue the quality of his playing, or the project itself, which is one of the boldest ventures to emerge from the modern recording industry. If that is a bigger concept than one, small-minded beetling critic can handle, that's OK with me. I loved having my intellect entertained for once.