Haydn's Haus

[Madiel]

Thanks. I probably won't comment or suggest for any of the ones that you're redoing, because as far as my music collection is currently concerned it seems as if Haydn almost dropped out of the sky and landed in London.

Which irritates me mightily.  I'm naturally like that with all composers/musicians, in that if I like them I want to get to know their body of work as a whole.  But with Haydn, not only is the imbalance in my collection particularly acute, he's also one of my very favourite composers.  I've been trying to scrape together my own rough chronological ideas for various types of works (symphonies, quartets, keyboard sonatas), but it's not easy with all the vague estimates, so it's rather exciting to find someone who's been spending a few years sorting it out as best as it can be sorted.

I've only read the first 6 parts so far, so can you give me a sneak preview and tell me if you later identify the works that WERE published in sets, originally?  My completist streak very much likes to know when things actually belonged together, in the composer's mind (at least when arranging publication) and when things have just ended up that way on my CD.

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks. I probably won't comment or suggest for any of the ones that you're redoing, because as far as my music collection is currently concerned it seems as if Haydn almost dropped out of the sky and landed in London.

Which irritates me mightily.  I'm naturally like that with all composers/musicians, in that if I like them I want to get to know their body of work as a whole.  But with Haydn, not only is the imbalance in my collection particularly acute, he's also one of my very favourite composers.  I've been trying to scrape together my own rough chronological ideas for various types of works (symphonies, quartets, keyboard sonatas), but it's not easy with all the vague estimates, so it's rather exciting to find someone who's been spending a few years sorting it out as best as it can be sorted.

I've only read the first 6 parts so far, so can you give me a sneak preview and tell me if you later identify the works that WERE published in sets, originally?  My completist streak very much likes to know when things actually belonged together, in the composer's mind (at least when arranging publication) and when things have just ended up that way on my CD.

  Know what you mean. When I first started this thread I had an ad hoc rule that forbade discussion of the London symphonies, at least until the other few thousand works had got a mention.

I didn't dwell on the set aspect, although certainly it is there and IIRC, I mentioned it en passant when it came and went. I do have a modest amount of publication history though that I can share. Give me a bit to collect some together. The only genre in which this applies to any great extent will be the string quartets, of course. I can tell you up front that the opuses 1 & 2 were not composed as sets, but were published (on the sly) as arbitrary selections from a pile of single works. In any case, I will get back soon with what I can dig up, and meanwhile, enjoy the remainder and feel free to add anything else you desire. I'm always looking to enhance my own appreciation, too.

[Karl Henning]

Welcome to the Haus, orfeo!

[Madiel]

Opus 76. My very first Haydn chamber music. My very first string quartets by anybody.

Same here. My first Haydn. My first string quartets. And possibly the first classical music I ever bought for myself.

Naxos cassettes, Kodaly Quartet. I was 16 or 17.  Those cassettes got me through most university exam periods.  I have the same performances on CD now.

[TheGSMoeller]

My Haydn thought of the day...

One aspect of Haydn's compositions that constantly impress me is when he incorporates a fugue or counterpoint. The pieces that come to mind are the finale to Symphony #40 an #95, also two of the quartets from Op. 20, H III/36 and H III/32...

I feel that the finale of #44 also offers slight glimpses of a fugue...

I'm in search of some more if anyone can help.

[Ataraxia]

Welcome to the Haus, orfeo!

Our Haus, in the middle of our Strasse. 

[Karl Henning]

By coincidence most curious, I was listening to the d minor quartet from Op.76 on the way in to the MFA, to watch In Search of Haydn.

[Leo K.]

Welcome Orfeo!

[Gurn Blanston]

Same here. My first Haydn. My first string quartets. And possibly the first classical music I ever bought for myself.

Naxos cassettes, Kodaly Quartet. I was 16 or 17.  Those cassettes got me through most university exam periods.  I have the same performances on CD now.

Ah, the Kodaly were the second version I got. I like their take on Op 76. My first were the Carmina Quartet on Denon; even today after so many other hearings, I like theirs the best. That imprinting thing...

My Haydn thought of the day...

One aspect of Haydn's compositions that constantly impress me is when he incorporates a fugue or counterpoint. The pieces that come to mind are the finale to Symphony #40 an #95, also two of the quartets from Op. 20, H III/36 and H III/32...

I feel that the finale of #44 also offers slight glimpses of a fugue...

I'm in search of some more if anyone can help.

Not sure how you stand on sacred music, Greg, but the 6 late Masses are chock full of splendid fugues. My memory being as lame as it is, I can't list them from the symphonies or quartets OTTOMH, but I can certainly isolate a few for you with time.

[Opus106]

Gurn, if it has been put down on paper, what was Haydn's views on Bach's and Handel's music? And how much of an influence did their works (or any other Baroque big- or little-wig's) have on his later compositions?

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn, if it has been put down on paper, what was Haydn's views on Bach's and Handel's music? And how much of an influence did their works (or any other Baroque big- or little-wig's) have on his later compositions?

Navneeth, AFAIK, there is no mention of Sebastian Bach in any association with Haydn. He was quite partial to Emanuel Bach though. Handel, of course, he had a long relationship with his music from 1791 onwards. Every written comment that I've seen has been very positive, although Haydn wasn't one to say anything negative about another composer. If there is one inference I can make it is that I came away from Landon's book thinking that Haydn may have thought that the English overvalued Handel's music a little. Like in the 3 day festivals, where they wouldn't allow anything other than Handel to be played, he said that there were other worthy composers of that time, and the playing of their music would complement Handel's rather than detract from. But that isn't negative, it's an artistic judgement.

[Opus106]

Navneeth, AFAIK, there is no mention of Sebastian Bach in any association with Haydn.

That's a bit disappointing. Given Haydn's acquaintance with Van Sweiten, one would expect that he might have said something or the other about JSB.

He was quite partial to Emanuel Bach though. Handel, of course, he had a long relationship with his music from 1791 onwards. Every written comment that I've seen has been very positive, although Haydn wasn't one to say anything negative about another composer. If there is one inference I can make it is that I came away from Landon's book thinking that Haydn may have thought that the English overvalued Handel's music a little. Like in the 3 day festivals, where they wouldn't allow anything other than Handel to be played, he said that there were other worthy composers of that time, and the playing of their music would complement Handel's rather than detract from. But that isn't negative, it's an artistic judgement.

The perfect gentleman, I suppose. Self-effacing (and realistic, perhaps) in the way the he didn't necessarily want his music to overthrow Handel's in London.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Karl Henning]

No, but thanks for the info. This series, which started with Mozart and Beethoven, is reputedly outstanding.

By coincidence most curious, I was listening to the d minor quartet from Op.76 on the way in to the MFA, to watch In Search of Haydn.

I had seen the earlier In Search of Beethoven, and at the MFA, with my buddy Paul C (harpsichordist on Lunar Glare) . . . and I can affirm that its reputation for excellence is deserved.  For that very reason (even if I had not been additionally interested because of my recent application for Haydnista status) I should have made time for In Search of Haydn.

The new film is every bit as good — beautiful to watch, glorious to listen to in all its musical examples (the greater part of which are executed by PI ensembles/instrumentalists), and unflaggingly engaging in the interviews with conductors, performers, and yea, even the occasional historian — as that on Beethoven. (A fact which, incidentally, has me keen to check out his first effort, on Mozart.)  If anything, this film had an added poignancy, since "Papa" is not anywhere so well represented on film as his more celebrated pupil (unless there's a cult film out there on Haydn's Wig Hair).

Perforce it had an additional sentimental impact on yours truly, since so many of the musical examples are pieces I've heard for the first time within the past six or nine months — and because it echoed no few historical facts which I learnt first via Gurn's survey, over in da Hause.  Visually it was on many points ultimate satisfaction of curiosity which I've nurtured since I was a mere slip of an undergrad, as the director brought his camera to the village of "Papa's" birth, to the Cathedral of St Stephen in Vienna, to the Esterházy compound in Eisenstadt, and particularly to the grounds and some of the rich interiors of Esterháza itself.

In both films, the director (Phil Grabsky) worked with a great sensitivity to the subject, and with an admirable narrative detachment. The project is obviously the result of that combination of general historical interest and musical admiration to which our Gurn is no stranger, yet Grabsky keeps out of the way, and even his extensive use of interviews gives a sense both of academic balance, and of oral history — curious to say, since of course the subject has been dead more than 200 years.  But then, of course, to us performers, composers both living and ancient become a sort of partner.

[TheGSMoeller]

Not sure how you stand on sacred music, Greg, but the 6 late Masses are chock full of splendid fugues. My memory being as lame as it is, I can't list them from the symphonies or quartets OTTOMH, but I can certainly isolate a few for you with time.

The love Haydn's Stabat Mater and for masses I only have the "Nelson Mass"...but I would definitely be interested in checking out the others with some good recommendations.
Thanks, Gurn. 

[Gurn Blanston]

The love Haydn's Stabat Mater and for masses I only have the "Nelson Mass"...but I would definitely be interested in checking out the others with some good recommendations.
Thanks, Gurn. 

Ah, The Nelson Mass. Well, of course, you would have the one with the least amount of fugal writing!   There is a nice little short fugue at the end of the Gloria though, and then directly following, the Credo begins with an excellent little strict canon, which you don't hear every day in Classical Era masses. Unusually enough, he even leaves out a couple of fugue possibilities, probably as much to upset the listeners' expectations as for any other reason. 

If you are looking for the 6 Great Masses, this box is not only excellent, but (at least recently) it is both affordable and readily available.

[Gurn Blanston]

I had seen the earlier In Search of Beethoven, and at the MFA, with my buddy Paul C (harpsichordist on Lunar Glare) . . . and I can affirm that its reputation for excellence is deserved.  For that very reason (even if I had not been additionally interested because of my recent application for Haydnista status) I should have made time for In Search of Haydn.

The new film is every bit as good — beautiful to watch, glorious to listen to in all its musical examples (the greater part of which are executed by PI ensembles/instrumentalists), and unflaggingly engaging in the interviews with conductors, performers, and yea, even the occasional historian — as that on Beethoven. (A fact which, incidentally, has me keen to check out his first effort, on Mozart.)  If anything, this film had an added poignancy, since "Papa" is not anywhere so well represented on film as his more celebrated pupil (unless there's a cult film out there on Haydn's Wig Hair).

Perforce it had an additional sentimental impact on yours truly, since so many of the musical examples are pieces I've heard for the first time within the past six or nine months — and because it echoed no few historical facts which I learnt first via Gurn's survey, over in da Hause.  Visually it was on many points ultimate satisfaction of curiosity which I've nurtured since I was a mere slip of an undergrad, as the director brought his camera to the village of "Papa's" birth, to the Cathedral of St Stephen in Vienna, to the Esterházy compound in Eisenstadt, and particularly to the grounds and some of the rich interiors of Esterháza itself.

In both films, the director (Phil Grabsky) worked with a great sensitivity to the subject, and with an admirable narrative detachment. The project is obviously the result of that combination of general historical interest and musical admiration to which our Gurn is no stranger, yet Grabsky keeps out of the way, and even his extensive use of interviews gives a sense both of academic balance, and of oral history — curious to say, since of course the subject has been dead more than 200 years.  But then, of course, to us performers, composers both living and ancient become a sort of partner.

Haydn Lives Upstairs, or even better Immortal Beloved or Infernal Beast? seem like natural successors, Karl.

Thanks for the excellent review. It sounds like all I was hoping for. One wonders how this got made without Phil consulting with me...

[mszczuj]

Navneeth, AFAIK, there is no mention of Sebastian Bach in any association with Haydn.

Geiringer writes that Haydn was an owner of the copy of the Mass in B minor.

[Gurn Blanston]

Geiringer writes that Haydn was an owner of the copy of the Mass in B minor.

Thanks, mszczuj. Now I know more.   Also somewhere, he mentions the WTC, which really  is (The Forty-Eight) the bulk of what was remembered of JSB at that time. I just don't remember reading anything about his opinions being expressed, which they were about Handel due to the circumstances. He actually studied Handel's music assiduously, to the point that when he was invited to visit the home of the Prince of Wales, and George III was there, he was able to play a couple of pieces by request since he had already studied them.

[Karl Henning]

The other part of Show & Tell:

[Gurn Blanston]

The other part of Show & Tell:

Cool! I like that Beethoven painting, I have it as the wallpaper on my work computer.   I have heard some very good things about that show, as well as the Mozart one. Nice to have the director acknowledge you. You should have offered him your autograph, Karl!  0:)