Modern composers

[bhodges]

Henk, at this point you have probably heard more Kagel than I have!  My interest in him dates back to the early 1970s, when I first heard Der Schall in its LP incarnation, on Deutsche Grammophon's Avant Garde Series.  (Some of the series made it to CD...others did not, which is why I was so delighted to find Der Schall on UbuWeb, and just to be fair, I'm not sure I could listen to it all that often.  )  But in any case, it was one of the first "modern" pieces I heard and I found it fascinating.

You may have found this nicely-designed site that has a huge list of Kagel's works.  I realize I've heard probably a fraction of them.  (He is not performed often in the United States--or at least, in New York.)  I'm hoping through UbuWeb and gradual accumulation of recordings to hear more of his work. 

--Bruce

[Henk]

Bruce, I also was fascinated by Kagel's art. But the last time I listened to Stucke der Windrose I felt a bit weird about it. Nietzsche said Wagner made music subordinate to theatre. This influenced the way I feel about Kagel's music. I think Kagel does the same as Wagner. It's fascinating until you realize this.

[Fëanor]

Schoenberg invented the twelve-tone system, which assumes atonality but isn't the same thing as atonality.

I stand corrected, Sarkosian.  Not being musically trained I'm unfamiliar with the technical definition of atonality.  I'll find opportunity to listen to the Liszt, et al., that you recommend.

Nevertheless to my naive ear Schoenberg/Alban/Berg present a certain discontinuity from everything that preceded them.

[jochanaan]

Liszt invented it.

If you're talking about the Faust Symphony's theme, I'd call it an extraordinary anticipation of serialism; not serialism itself, since it doesn't develop in the serial manner.

As for "pre-tonal" music, it is definitely not atonal since, with only a few exceptions like Carlo Gesualdo's Moro lasso (you'd like that one, Henk ), it has a strong tonal center.  The proper term is modal.  Most traditional Asian and Asian-influenced music is also modal.

[quintett op.57]

Liszt late compositions - as another poster has noted - points to the same direction.  But is probably has not had the influence of Wagner, as that music was (and still is) seldom played.  Worst, Liszt's students, who were embarassed by the Master's late music & appear to have considered it the expression of senility, failed to include it in their editions of Liszt's "complete" works.

It's always been less famous to the larger audience than Wagner's operas, but for me it's obvious that it has not prevented later composers from hearing it. So much music sounds like Liszt's after him.
I can't believe the (numerous) guys influenced by his tone poems (Strauss, Rachmaninov, Schönberg...) forgot to have a look at his late piano works.
It's very hard to believe Debussy and Ravel had not listened to his late piano music.
[/quote]

[Mark G. Simon]

I can't believe the (numerous) guys influenced by his tone poems (Strauss, Rachmaninov, Schönberg...) forgot to have a look at his late piano works.
It's very hard to believe Debussy and Ravel had not listened to his late piano music.

I find it very easy to believe they didn't. If the music wasn't published, how were they to know about it?

[quintett op.57]

In fact you're right, Liszt's impressionism is not that late 

If you're talking about the Faust Symphony's theme, I'd call it an extraordinary anticipation of serialism; not serialism itself, since it doesn't develop in the serial manner.

Though I'm listening to the Faust-Symphony right now, I was talking about the "Bagatelle sans tonalité", which is not a serial work either.

[karlhenning]

Nothing by Liszt is serial. (As jochanaan makes plain.)

[lukeottevanger]

...though there is that famous '12-note' idea opening the Faust Symphony. Which is important more for the influence it exerted and for its iconic value than for any intrinsic serial foreshadowings which, of course, aren't there.

The Bagatelle sans tonalite, btw, isn't really atonal either. It just floats there, pinned in a tonally ambiguous space by symmetrical harmonies such as augmented triads and other whole tone chords, diminished sevenths, chromatic scales and so on.....

[greg]

Karl Henning certainly has some interesting music.

I also like Mr. Gorecki.

At least my Gorecki alliance has one member.

[Maciek]

The Bagatelle sans tonalite, btw, isn't really atonal either.

But then, neither is the Wagner.

BTW, naming Chopin as the precursor of musical modernity is a commonplace in Polish musicology. Tadeusz Zieliński's textbook on 20th century music idioms has a large quotation form the E Minor Prelude in the opening chapter. (I also seem to remember a quotation from Schumann's Waldszenen there, but can't find it. However, this is not the copy I originally read, and I just noticed all page numbers are missing from the index - so perhaps it is somehow faulty. I distinctly remember that Schumann from my teacher's copy - in fact, it was one of the reasons why I became interested in that piece. Ah, whatever. Need to get back to work now.)

[lukeottevanger]

But then, neither is the Wagner.

BTW, naming Chopin as the precursor of musical modernity is a commonplace in Polish musicology. Tadeusz Zieliński's textbook on 20th century music idioms has a large quotation form the E Minor Prelude in the opening chapter. (I also seem to remember a quotation from Schumann's Waldszenen there, but can't find it. However, this is not the copy I originally read, and I just noticed all page numbers are missing from the index - so perhaps it is somehow faulty. I distinctly remember that Schumann from my teacher's copy - in fact, it was one of the reasons why I became interested in that piece. Ah, whatever. Need to get back to work now.)

The E minor prelude - perhaps. But there are some Mazurkas which are much more extreme. And that sketch of an E flat minor prelude (I think that's they key - I have the music at home) which is really ultra-modern.  Or would have been, at any rate (if he'd had the guts to go through with it  ) (only joking)

[quintett op.57]

The Bagatelle sans tonalite, btw, isn't really atonal either.

Which key is it?

[Maciek]

The E minor prelude - perhaps. But there are some Mazurkas which are much more extreme. And that sketch of an E flat minor prelude (I think that's they key - I have the music at home) which is really ultra-modern.  Or would have been, at any rate (if he'd had the guts to go through with it  ) (only joking)

I guess he (Zielinski) chose the E minor prelude because the extreme chromatics (both extremely simple, and extremely not-really-tonal at the same time) somehow connect it to Wagner. Obviously, we both favour the Mazurkas as the best thing Chopin gave to the world, nothing to discuss there (and many of them are more modal than tonal, I think - because of the use of folk scales? but then my knowledge of harmony is really rather sketchy...) But I guess there are some other "tonally-transgressive" pieces of his as well: like the slow movement of the B minor sonata where the functionality seems to be almost entirely subordinated to colour. Which is the case in many Chopin pieces, and which of course is still a far cry from atonal writing.

(BTW, I have no idea what prelude you're talking about - nor which mazurka was it that Lutosławski mentioned.)

[lukeottevanger]

@ quintett, re the Liszt.

The point is that it floats around many keys without choosing a central one, not that it has none at all. It isn't at all hard to find a variety of strongly suggested tonal centres in the piece, but they rarely last beyond a bar or two, and the use of whole tone and chormatic elements makes movement in between them rather fluid. The title means, I suppose, 'Bagatelle without a [single] tonal centre' (and is thus comparable with a title such as Bagatelle in C major), but, as there is an understandable wish to seek out atonal music as far back as possible, it is often read as meaning 'Atonal Bagatelle'. The two aren't the same.

[lukeottevanger]

(BTW, I have no idea what prelude you're talking about - nor which mazurka was it that Lutosławski mentioned.)

Hey, could it be I can actually tell you something about Polish music you were unaware of!!

Check this out - with downloadable mp3. Edit - darn it - that mp3 link is not working any more, and though I used to have it saved on my PC, I can't find it now....

Anyway, the attachments give you all the detail, plus various reconstructions. It's an astonishing sounding piece, you'll have to trust me!

[lukeottevanger]

Second little bit - the main realisation is in this one.

[lukeottevanger]

Last bit

[Maciek]

WOW! Thanks a lot! I was a bit apprehensive after posting that - saying anything at all about harmony was really going out of my depth...

Not sure what exactly was wrong with your link but after removing everything after "html" I got this, and it works:

http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/2002/B/20026577.html

Thanks again!

[lukeottevanger]

WOW! Thanks a lot! I was a bit apprehensive after posting that - saying anything at all about harmony was really going out of my depth...

Not sure what exactly was wrong with your link but after removing everything after "html" I got this, and it works:

http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/2002/B/20026577.html

Thanks again!

Missing ']', that's all! But the really annoying thing is the missing mp3. I'm really  about that