Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Draško]

Or DG mistyped.

Possibly. It was originally a Westminster production, and I've even seen doubts raised that the VSOO in their recordings is not quite the VSOO, but mainly a free-lance staffed pick-up band named thus through some loophole. So if there was mistype or misattribution I'm more likely to think them the culprit.

[André]

Mandryka: it's from the disc's liner notes, culled in part from private documents provided by Myriam Scherchen. I have the MCA edition, the one I posted the pic from. I don't know what kind of notes the reissued Westminster box provides.

Re: the VSOO and the Konzerthaus. From what I've read many years ago, the orchestra was a rather « mobile » one, with viennese players hopping from one formation to the other rather freely. I don't think the viennese concert scene was compartmentalized then (1953). But there seems to be a consensus that most of the State Opera Orchestra members were working as the city's Philharmoniker.

The reason I guessed it was the Konzerthaus is indeed because the sense of space is quite different from the Musikverein's. More intimate, compact yet crystal clear in sound. In this particular recording the amount of percussion detail is amazing. Check the second movement for example. You can pinpoint quite precisely the spatial localization of even the faintest cymbal brushes. The thickly scored finale is muddier though. On headphones the effect is squarely monophonic. I listened to it both ways.

EDIT: I just read that conductor Otto Nicolai instituted a rule by which a musician could join the Philharmoniker only after having held a position with the State Opera orchestra. So there is indeed a direct link, and it seems to be contractual. It doesn't specify if a position can be held in both formations simultaneously, though.

https://theculturetrip.com/europe/austria/articles/10-things-you-didnt-know-about-the-vienna-philharmonic-orchestra/


Picture of the Konzerthaus:



The Musikverein:

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I think there's some confusion here. The pix you are showing are the Konzerthaus' "GROSSER SAAL" and of course the Musikverein's "GOLDEN HALL". The former is considerably bigger in volume (if not audience capacity -- but that's because they cram 'em in there, in the MV, like the Sardines) than the Musikverein... and eminently well suited to romantic music (built in 1913, after all) whereas everything from Beethoven 9th and upward already demands taking real care with the acoustics in the Musikverein. (DSCH and Mahler can be a real challenge, except for the three regular orchestras in there, which know how to handle it.) So decidedly not more intimacy in the Konzerthaus' Grosser Saal... though more clarity, due to the much wider (sound) stage.

The Mozart Saal, however, is the Konzerthaus' second (of the three traditional) halls; one of the best chamber venues that I know anywhere in the world.



But the stage isn't suited for a full orchestra, which is why I was baffled for a bit. But this hall would certainly give credence to the intimacy argument. And if it wasn't a full orchestra (just think the famous Walter 9th - recorded with an orchestra at 1/3 strength), they would have fit there just snugly, I reckon.

[André]

I can't tell, honestly. The pics I posted are taken from the link I provided. I merely culled them because some people won't open an url they don't know. If the Mahler 7th was recorded in the Mozartsaal, it does indeed seem quite small for the undertaking.

[André]

I also have Scherchen's VSOO versions of the 2nd from June 1958, and the 5th from July 1953. The latter date is identical with that of the 7th symphony recording, so I would assume they were recorded in the same venue. But the Resurrection, with the choir, could not, I think, have been taped in the Mozart Saal. Maybe someone can find details on that ? The liner notes to the MCA discs do not provide any clue.

[LKB]

I can see M7 working in the Mozartsaal.

Speculating, but one layout might have had brass in the balconies, assuming they were available at the time. Standard percussion,  guitar, mandolin & harp deployed on the stage. Remove the seats, and you have just enough room for strings and woodwinds.

And of course, l may be completely wrong...

,

LKB

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I can see M7 working in the Mozartsaal.

Speculating, but one layout might have had brass in the balconies, assuming they were available at the time. Standard percussion,  guitar, mandolin & harp deployed on the stage. Remove the seats, and you have just enough room for strings and woodwinds.

And of course, l may be completely wrong...

,

LKB

You could just clear all the chairs and make it a recording studio, I suppose. But a M2, that might be pushing it even then. Although they might then fit into the back balcony. The hall isn't tiny; it fits 704 audience members.

[aukhawk]

This peculiar 7-disc box set is currently on offer at Presto Classical, the discs cheaper than the downloads.



Each of the 3 symphonies is presented twice, first in a (remastered) 1960s recording by Kiril Kondrashin and the Moscow Philharmonic Orch, then in a 2016 recording by Alexander Sladkovsky with the Tatarstan Symphony Orch.  I stumbled across this while looking at the Sladkovsky complete set of Shostakovich symphonies.  The Sladkovsky recordings don't appear to be available separately.

I've only listened to the Sladkovsky Mahler 9th, via Spotify.  It's a very good recording and an unusually sweet sound in the 9th, treading lightly through the music where most other conducters adopt a heavier-seeming, almost dragging, approach in the 1st movement.  I was enjoying it a lot until that pivotal episode in the 1st movement where the orchestral bells put in a brief appearance.  Tubular bells, no, just ... no!     This is admittedly a deal-breaker for me in several otherwise fine Mahler 9ths.  I was spoilt by seeing Haitink conduct the CO (I don't think it was Royal back then) and their rack of bell plates were like rough-cast slabs of old iron, but just the lightest touch from the percussionist filled the Albert Hall with a juddering sound like the dinner-gong from Hell.  What a concert that was.

[aukhawk]

I had a listen to the Totenfeier from this new Vanska/Minnesota issue today.  Sadly I was a bit underwhelmed.  The opening seemed a bit rushed, and a bit restrained and lacking in weight, and then on reaching the first lyrical passage there was a massive slow-down and an injection of sweetness.  This pattern was repeated throughout the movement, with the dramatic passages taken quicker than average for this music, and the lyrical passages taken very slowly indeed, almost at a standstill at times.  No sense of stoic onward propulsion.  In the end the sweetness wins out and the music finishes in that mode - no pathos, no sadness, no rejection - just drips of saccharine.
On the plus side the transparent nature of the recording and the slow tempi brought through several musical details that I'd never noticed before, especially near the end of the longest lyrical passage, around halfway through in total, some wonderful bits of newly-heard detail there.

[Cato]

  Tubular bells, no, just ... no!    This is admittedly a deal-breaker for me in several otherwise fine Mahler 9ths.  I was spoilt by seeing Haitink conduct the CO (I don't think it was Royal back then) and their rack of bell plates were like rough-cast slabs of old iron, but just the lightest touch from the percussionist filled the Albert Hall with a juddering sound like the dinner-gong from Hell.  What a concert that was.

I will need to check my score later today (I am at school right now), but does Mahler specify the kind of Glocken ?

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Speaking of Mahler: My next Discography -- highly overdue, somehow -- will be, as per Twitter-Poll stipulation, of Mahler Symphonies.

Let me float a few ideas.

For a quick overview of what a cycle contains, I've thought about a "traffic-light" system of indicating the completeness.

Here are the possibilities:

< 1-9 ("incomplete")

1-9 exactly ("bare minimum")

1-9 + Lied ("more than minimum but not complete")

1-9 + Adagio 10th ("more than minimum but not complete")

1-9 + 10th ("more than minimum but not complete")

1-9 + more other than the above ("more than minimum but not complete")

1-9 + Lied + Adagio 10th ("complete")

1-9 + Lied + 10th ("complete with honors")

all that and more (i.e. Das Klagende Lied) ("completist")

How many categories does it make sense to divide these into?


[1-9 + Adagio 10th] is very common... but it could also be lumped into a group of the "more than minimum but not complete" sets.

Does that make sense... would it help... would it be overkill and unwieldy?

Also, sorting by conductor might, in this case, make more sense than sorting by date... because it is interesting to see and directly compare how many cycles any given conductor has undertaken... and because there is often enough overlap between such cycles.

Any thoughts?

[André]

Are there sets of just 1-9 ? I would have imagined they all contain the Adagio of the 10th as well.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Are there sets of just 1-9 ? I would have imagined they all contain the Adagio of the 10th as well.

Solti?

[André]

Solti?

You're right ! He might have a category unto himself, then. Unless there are others, that is.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

You're right ! He might have a category unto himself, then. Unless there are others, that is.

Abbado II, Simonov. "BR Klassik Cycle". Nott*. Kubelik. Solti, as mentioned. "Telarc Cycle". Tennstedt Big Box Cycle... possibly others, as I'm not through the whole list yet.

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

Abbado II, Simonov. "BR Klassik Cycle". Nott*. Kubelik. Solti, as mentioned. "Telarc Cycle". Tennstedt Big Box Cycle... possibly others, as I'm not through the whole list yet.

Kubelik/DG includes the Adagio from 10.

As far as I am concerned 1-9 is a cycle. 1-9 + the adagio from 10 is a cycle with icing on the cake. The completions of 10 may be interesting, but they're not Mahler. The various lieds are only needed if you want to claim "complete works of..."

[Madiel]

I don't think he means various Lied, I suspect he specifically means Das Lied von der Erde. Which is often labelled as equivalent to the symphonies in all but name.

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

I don't think he means various Lied, I suspect he specifically means Das Lied von der Erde. Which is often labelled as equivalent to the symphonies in all but name.

I guess you can make a case, but I tend to be literalist in such matters. He didn't call it a symphony (although he did tentatively call it a symphony in a draft, I recall).

[Madiel]

I guess you can make a case, but I tend to be literalist in such matters. He didn't call it a symphony (although he did tentatively call it a symphony in a draft, I recall).

Oh sure, and I can see arguments both ways. I just mean that in terms of the boxes Jens is looking to tick in a discography, it's DLvdE that's being considered specifically because that is something a lot of people would be looking for.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Oh sure, and I can see arguments both ways. I just mean that in terms of the boxes Jens is looking to tick in a discography, it's DLvdE that's being considered specifically because that is something a lot of people would be looking for.

Correct. And, although it ultimately comes down to personal taste, I do very much consider "Das Lied" the Symphony 8.5.  Or 9.0, with the 9th 9.1. Or something along those lines.

Ghost is right, of course, re: Kubelik.

Would something like the below be distinctive enough...?